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20260805-Dionisíacas Special Volume - Two experts one fool W⧸ Dr. Ammon Hillman and Evina Vryoni

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Well, [music] let's talk about Bacchic war. You get a some kind of violent Bacchic um ecstasy that takes things over.

[music]

>> You can't have a good It wasn't adjective to describe Dionysus in that sense. >> [music] >> And he's performing purgations with drugs. [music] And these healings affect the person's soul.

>> Your echoes will not be like a just uh a crazy hippie in a cave doing drugs.

>> [Music] >> They were newborns when they were

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Um adopted I'll call it adopted by the oracles. >> [music] >> Everybody can experience this purgation. Is that what it means to be Bacchic? >> [music]

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>> So, >> [music] >> when we have pre-Socratic philosophers uh investigating the ultimate basis, the origin of the external [music] world, the arche the uh beginning, the arche in ancient Greek, of many things, the material principle that started the whole world, which was later said by other uh scientists that it was the Big Bang, right? But, for pre-Socratic philosophers, it was other things. The arche, for example, uh for Thales the from Miletus,

Uh for him it was water. Water that was the base of everything. For other ones, was the air. Or we have later uh Heraclitus talking about fire as the origin of everything. Or Anaximander earlier for um the unlimited

The apeiron as the beginning of everything, which can be quite confusing. >> Mhm. >> [laughter] >> Yes, that's amazing, Evina. Um I I guess we can keep talking a bit more on this. And um I will because I have this Ammon is writing to me. So, if you don't mind I would like to to introduce you to >> Oh, that's be pleasure. And then I can talk about the Socratic leg of your question. >> Uh we can double bit in the pre-Socratic still because it's a big one. And yeah,

Then we So, I will let I will let it let him in. Doctor

Are you there? Well, I have to uh good and you I have to do the the um you know, the audio thing. So, I'll just Here is Evina. Uh this is Doctor Ammon Evina. Uh I Well, I have talked to Ammon about you and I have talked to you a about Ammon a bit, just a bit. >> Well, it's a pleasure it's pleasure to meet you. I'm not sure why you talked about me to Doctor Ammon. I mean >> [laughter] >> We know him. He's he's great in what

He's doing, incredible work. And I know he's helped a lot in the podcast. And I mean, I feel we're all lucky to to have you around. >> Evina, please don't call me Doctor Ammon. Just call me Ammon. That's That sounds so funny. Um I'm I'm to be able to meet you and to chat and um I'm looking forward. I want to probe your background, too. Could you just let me know a little bit about where your strengths are and the things that really drive you, the things that you're really interested in?

>> Yeah, sure. Um so well, I studied classics, obviously, that's why I'm here um in Athens um and the reason why I studied classics was because I've I was always fascinated by the world of etymology on one leg and on the other leg by the world, the ancient world. And I've always wondered how life would be and reading texts, original ones, even more. Uh it makes you feel more connected to that world. Um so, I was always fascinated by that. Then, I strove away from that world and I studied

Linguistics. So, >> [laughter] >> I betray, right? >> A betrayer. An errant philologist. What happened? You went into the No, uh that's beautiful. Do you have any favorite, you know, ancient authors? Do you Or do you have a Are you drawn to anybody in particular? >> I have a soft spot for tragedies. Like I love it. Well, of course, I studied Homer from the original text. I love it, obviously. The language itself is so beautiful in the original form. Um but I really do like um generally theater.

So, I'm really drawn into reading ancient texts. I always try to go and see um the modern versions of tragedies. I find it very interesting. I don't know if you found yourself in um anytime in Epidaurus Epidaurus, called No, you know I have that struggle with the pronunciation. You probably understand me. >> Yes, no, that's okay. That's okay. I You know how it is. I went to graduate school with um Tom and Kiki from um they were Spartans. They just pure up Spartans. Um but uh

They It's the same thing and I'm you know, I have to apologize a little bit cuz I'm really I really like to stress the fact that modern Greek does not have the coining capacity. People are not coining anymore on a daily basis. That the language is somehow shut off, you know, like our English where where we are not functioning at that higher level that the Greek artists are functioning at. And I've always been fascinated by the transition to modern Greek.

You as a person who've been exposed to both, you've you've who've been in that in both of those arenas, do you find that the ancient Greek is challenging on a level that, you know, kind of reflects our own operating systems that are insufficient. Um do you feel that way about mother Greek that she's just that much more profoundly powerful? >> Um well, that's a big thing to say. >> [laughter] >> Um but well, as I said before to to Bruno, um

I find it a bit sad that modern Greeks feel like ancient Greek is a completely different language. Um and there's been a lot of effort to change that view. That's why we've maintained Actually, we use the modern Greek accent pronunciation to read ancient Greek. It is an effort is a last resort to maybe convince people that it's not a different language. So, if that makes sense. And >> No, no, and um you're exactly right that it's not a different language. It is It is a language that has been dragged down from a height and people have been fighting

This ever since um the Byzantine scholars came in and said, "Hey, we need to bring back that purity. Look what Galen did." Trying to trying to bring back I I thoroughly I I am completely convinced that that seed of mother Greek is still there despite what has happened to modern Greek, despite the slowdown. I think and and the people have that core. If you can reform the language, if you can bring it back up to its um purity, that is take off all the restrictions that Katharevousa

Um you know, enforces and stop the simplification and bring back the language that causes its users to create vocabulary. Um and I would also say meter as well, music as well. Because I think that's what Sappho what the big deal about Sappho's new meter is. And because she's using the language. And I don't know, is that too I sounds like I'm being harsh on modern Greek, but I think modern Greek could be elevated to its real, you know, glorious form. I don't know. Um how are the modern Greeks now uh it

Uh in getting educated in Homer? Do you still do the kids still have to take Homer in high school? >> Yes. It will really hurt you if I tell you that it's only from translated text translated to modern Greek.

Sorry. Um and I have more bad news for you. So, it's only 4 years the obligatory education in ancient Greek. It starts in the beginning of secondary school. Sorry there, I'm using more British my British

Past. So, secondary school um from the age of 12 until the age of 16 is the obligatory education on ancient Greek. Um so, they learn the basics in grammar, some words in ancient Greek. They read very small extracts um mainly from historians because it's easier to follow. Um and at the same time they read um tragedies or Homer from translation.

And then at the age of 16 they have the choice there to to choose the topics they want to do for the last 2 years of school. And that is where you decide if you're going to take the path of the future science and computers or the boring one, Greek.

And I was one of the very few at school maybe among nine students that chose that path. Well, yeah. >> That's isn't that cool? Yeah. I'm sorry. Can I ask just a little bit for for ourselves here and for audience? Like at the beginning um I'm on you you used this word sure I'm not going to pronounce it well, but it was like coin it. What what what you meant because I guess I was talking with Evina before, um, when she was talking to us about this, um,

This ability to create words constantly [clears throat] in with ancient, um, Greek. The what you meant about this koiné was something related with that, uh, Ammon? >> Yes, yes, it is cuz as Evina will know, um, Greek has, uh, a history of rises and falls. There are periods when the language is very

Specifically oriented towards that formation of new vocabulary, and then there there are low points where the language is becoming common, and it is less interactive. The person is less able to create their own vocabulary. So, you get standardization,

And people have traditionally called that koiné, right? And Evina's linguistics will, you know, this this is all the laws of how the language works and everything. So, um, she'll understand that completely. Um, but the problem is that when you drop from that higher elevated form that has a very advanced vocabulary to a lower form that is not as structurally flexible, you not only lose vocabulary and the ability to make it, but you lose a flexible grammar that allows you to do specific things that, you know, they're

Like moves in gymnastics. It allows you to perform certain moves that you can't with a common a form of the language that's kind of dumbed down. And in antiquity, they are fighting Greek speakers from all over the place, all over the Mediterranean, are fighting over the purity, the power of that language, and they're led by people second sophistics. They're led by people who are who are bringing trying to elevate the language again. And that's what I think when Evina talks about the people in Greece and what

Their desires are. And I know not a lot go down the track that you did to get back to the mother Greek. But I I studied with two of them at University of Wisconsin through a PhD. Through a PhD, and they're very well aware because of their exposure, their forced exposure, they're very well aware of this you know how the language can drop and rise. And it's so confusing. Evina, let me ask you Let me ask you this. Um have you noticed that seminaries,

Religious educations tend to create these fake worlds where when when they bring you like Greek, for example, they'll tell you there's a difference between Koine Greek, which is just the common Greek, and the Attic Greek of Athens in the tragedies that you're so loving to read, right?

You can put Aeschylus next to the New Testament, right? And you can just study the differences in language, you can see what's happening, the flexibility. And And for some reason, churches tend to perpetuate this by, you

Know, you I've had people come to me and say, "But wait a minute, Koine is not ancient Greek or classical Greek." and it's just like oh my God people what are you smoking you know what is it it just I don't know what what is your linguistics background >> You're right. Honestly I I don't I don't know if many people know that but in a Greek church everything that is heard nowadays in the Greek church is that going in the the language of the New Testament

It's ridiculous in my opinion because still don't understand it we've already talked about this connection of modern Greeks from ancient Greek language but even later forms of it so I find it ridiculous because most people go to church and they don't even understand what's happening [laughter] >> Right isn't that something isn't it something look oh God thank you for saying it's so good to get that perspective >> I I even need to make a whole syntax and everything in my head if I get to be in a place where this is read because yeah

Of course I studied that but that doesn't mean that I'm not like oh that was the verb so that was the subject and that's what what's going on in my mind crazy imagine the average person that doesn't get any training in ancient Greek because for years it's nothing what do you learn the conjugations of verbs and the cases and nouns nothing else >> It's it's amazing that we can still open up that we still have access to that font that it is there it's sitting there and you know the spark that you have for those tragedies

Like why is that when you get into the language and when you're being oh God it it restructures your mind in the way that you think it orders it it I don't know >> itself let's not even get to the ideas that are transmitted from these texts. >> Yeah. >> Let's talk barely about anything else but the words. >> Yes. >> [laughter] >> Any organization The organization >> The order of words, for example, that is so different in ancient Greek. And now we all follow the same motive like in English, subject, verb, object.

>> Yeah. >> And I was saying the example, I ate an apple, and that was I an apple eat. >> Yeah. >> Back then, every morning is a >> It is >> We've been We've been barbarianized. We've been turned into those people who weren't speaking that melodious, beautiful beautiful, gorgeous Greek. And people don't understand. But um just the use of particles. There's something in in ancient Greek called a particle. And these particles basically tell you the relations between previous sentences and the sentence that you were working on. They will tell you

Where you are within this within the entire structure of the written word. And by the way, you don't need to see a verb people until eight lines later. You can keep all of this juggling. How are they able The first time I was sitting in the Homer and I was reading to I was like, wait a minute, that that one thought that one sentence, we would say, was eight lines long. >> [laughter] >> There you go. >> Right. How do we did we keep track of Oh, look at the particles and what the They're setting things up in the

People's brains that are using it. That they can string out this music. It's not bar bar bar English bar bar bar bar bar. >> Don't say I have a part of me that's a linguist. Please don't say that because that part of me is hurt. The other part of me, the philologist, agrees with you. >> [laughter] >> So, I'm like I have two personalities. Um but you're abso- See, Bruno, what I was talking about before. Because Bruno asked me about the difference between philology and linguistics, and I said, "I knew all of >> [laughter]

>> Yes, elaborate a bit, Evina, please, on that. Uh I I know you you told you told us the difference. Um about just as it seems like between you two, obviously, you understand more what you mean when you say why a linguist and a philologist are like in kind of different two departments. Um can you can you explain to us a bit, Evina, just you know >> Yeah. I'll I'll also I'll also add to what Ammon said, that it was so much denser in sync Greek. So,

Um a good example of that is that I bet that's in every language, that when you get like a um a book, edited book of ancient Greek texts with a translation to another language, almost always, please, Ammon, correct me if I'm wrong. You probably have a lot more experience in that. Uh the ancient Greek text is like half page, and the translation next to it is like a full page and a half. And you're like, "Wait, isn't that line by line?" Also, it's multiple sentences. So, so

The period in ancient Greek has like a main verb, but on that main verb, we have many ideas hanging from it that in a modern language can only be explained by multiple periods. Because you cannot follow up such a long sentence. So, it's exactly what you said before, right? >> Yes, it's not a dance, right? In those languages, it's not a dance anymore. In the Greek, it's a dance, and you're taking in the whole thing in your mind at once. I had a >> Memorization, the use of brain. They

Were memorizing thousands of verses to to perform the Homeric epics. >> Yeah. Yeah, and that's wouldn't they be able to hold five tubs at the same time until they get to the verb? Correct. Correct. And that's why when you mentioned that when you get a translation, it's always longer. The translation is longer than the original. It's because the people, and that's completely standard, the people are struggling to be able to take a complexity and bring it into an in in one case, English, right? Into an English form, so they have to line up

These Oh, God, it's awful, people. It's awful. You don't um Mm. You can take this from an understand If you really want it in perspective, think of one word. We have oistromania in uh ancient Greek, which is this craziness caused by the sting of the gadfly. Okay, right? Listen to how much English I had to put into that. Right? Whereas that one word is capturing that concept, which none of us in English have thought about. What does when you get bitten, [clears throat] you know, you're the horse out in the field, and when you get bitten by that gadfly, what is the response that you

Have in your spirit to that gadfly? You have the oistromania. How is that oistromania? How is that exactly what the spirit of oracular prophecy produces? Why are the prophets, the oracles, why are those dancers in states of oyster mania? And how is it that the Christos, that that application of a drug leads to oyster mania? How is it that uh uh you cannot express these concepts except in a whole bunch of English words? >> Can I jump in there because you gave me the amazing example to to use to answer

The question of Bruno about the linguist and the philologist. So, a philologist is what exactly what you say, admires and respects that idea that with one word you can describe a whole concept. Maybe a linguist will say yes, but you can still express it. It doesn't matter if it is one word or a whole phrase. Does that make sense, Bruno? >> So, >> it's not that you don't respect the language, but you say, "Well, you can still say it in other words, in another language." >> Mhm. And um

>> It doesn't make sense. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. It's more like it's it's like but does the actual word philology implies in his actual meaning of it, but what it will mean uh in Greek? Philologist. Because we like this is the logos and philo, I guess, and I guess the whole concept implies

A relationship with the logos, let's say. >> Yeah. >> So, from from maybe from the a linguist um it will be more about I don't know how do you explain it, but maybe there is a word in in in Greek or ancient Greek for a what will be a linguist and it will be a different a linguist back then than a philologist. >> Let me Let me answer that one by saying, what you need to read are the people who study and write about the grammata.

That's what we're really dealing with. Right? You have exactly You have all of these ancient works of ancient Greeks writing about their own language. They're writing about how to use it. Like, where do you think the first lexica, the lexicon

The concept of a lexicon comes from those Greeks, right? Who are right who are creating this understanding, this philology, you would call it. How the language is working, how the words are working. And my god, man, in in a lexicon Oh god, I'll think of his name in a second, but in one of our lexica, Hesychius it is Hesychius, I think it is. He talks about He He gives us a lexicon of the unusual words in Greek. And in alpha alone, there's like 10,000

Entries. So, that's 10,000 just unusual words defined. And remember, when he's defining the word, he has to come up with a way to define it. So, it's like an exercise. The grammarians are the are the source of really This It's like the science of the language. And it's really when you talk about linguistics, it's being pioneered by these Greeks. I mean, you know, it's just the it's the way it is. It's gorgeous. >> And it's just Bruno that the when we started talking about the dancing times, we were not using the word "grammatistis",

"Grammarian", or "philologist" at all. We were using mostly the word "scholars" maybe. So, we were replacing that word in Greek. So, that's why we can't trace back to what they really were, grammarians. So, that is why we're disconnected. That's why probably they ask Ammon or me, "What is it that you do? What does that mean, philologist? What What is it? Are you a philosopher?" Well, I take it sometimes because they're thought to be smart. So, well, it depending on the context. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes no.

>> Yeah, sometimes there's no >> [laughter] >> I'm a philosopher. Yeah. >> Yeah, actually, that was the first and with with the first uh thing that we published with Ammon, the first the first question I had was "What is philology?" >> [laughter] >> Yeah, because it's like not not many people actually know. >> You know what I I would like to define it now as that spark that we just saw. Right? What is the tragedy? Why What What are we drawn to tragedy? There is something in it that feeds us, that you

Know, there's a reason they're always invoking the muse, Greek speakers. I don't care where they're from in antiquity. They're from all over the place. There is something that Greek speakers have with this notion of that invocation of the muse. Right? You really don't understand. People think, "Oh, it's just a nice thing to start off a song." You just You pray to a muse, an invisible being to show you the reality? You know, people don't understand the sophisticated mechanics that are behind it because who are those muses? They're

The daughters of memory. Right? The daughters of memory. And everything that these poets all remember all of this written stuff is coming like but where's it coming from? Look at the early lyric poets, man. Right? Look at Homer. These are songs. These are kitharas. These This is This is language that is is is accompanied

By music. And by the way, they invented the [\\h__\\h] they invented the [\\h__\\h] lyre. Is it am I wrong? Did they not invent the [\\h__\\h] guitar? >> They did. But also it's interesting how there muses that inspire you to study history. Because the word muse makes us think of music. Right? Isn't that isn't that right? Yeah, of course there were muses of dance, muses of uh song making. But there were muses that supposedly inspired you to write or to tell history or astronomy. >> [clears throat]

>> Yeah, it's to inquire. >> Yes. >> Right? It's to inquire. This is what it's all about. For >> inquiry. Sorry, I'm not >> Yeah, I love it. >> Well, for you to know, Amun, because we we were speaking before for like an hour and a half and and we talked about this. So, it's great that I for for us here hearing both of you talking about it. Because we we we I have been talking with you before about this. Now with Davina, this is you just met right now. So, for us is a privilege to have you both here like

>> For me it's a privilege to be here with Amun. >> Davina, can I Davina, can I ask you have you had much of a chance to look at any of the medical or drug stuff or in any of the like weird sources like the theriacs and stuff like that from Nicander. Have you had any sort of, you know, has any of that kind of stuff come up in the past cuz traditionally the reason I asked that is traditionally that stuff is not taught in at least American

Universities. It's not taught in classics departments. So, you kind of have to specialize. Have you come across any of that stuff along the way? >> Um you're right. It is not taught not only in the US, but nowhere in the world, I think. Uh maybe you're one of the few people that have the privilege to to analyze these texts. Uh but to be honest with you I feel privileged to have studied classics because at any moment I feel I have easy access because I understand ancient

Greek. I have easy access to any text. Um however

I have because at the same time I'm working on a project that mythological project that really really fascinates me. It's um it's that side of me that is a philologist. That part of me. From the dual personality that I have. Um so, it's a project I call you already speak Greek. Um and it it it's it explores the etymological origins and the historical development of certain words that are used in ancient Greek texts.

Um and that have survived up until today. And these words are only taken out of the world of human emotions. So, words that we use today like melancholy or um nostalgia. The these are just two examples. There are so many more, euphoria, and so on. Uh and I explore what they meant in the original texts and how they have survived today, if they still have the same meaning, like nostalgia. That was not really mentioned. It was a later um text that talks about nostalgia, but it was very well described nostos and um

Algos in Homer. They were they're very, very close there in the first verses um of Odyssey, like one line below one from the other. >> Yes. >> But still these concepts, how they have traveled through time and how we use them today. So, in one of these explorations I took, I read a bit more of Hippocrates.

And I I love how the word melancholy, which is used in plural, melancholies, um in the um in his text um Air, Water, and Places, if it's that's translation in English. >> [laughter] >> I hope I'm not uh wrong on that in the translation. So, there he speaks about the bile and and how people that tend to be more

I I'll say that well, yeah, they're more they're more prone, let's say, to have melancholies if the weather is drier during a year. So, that is how the climate affects the human body. So, I haven't really done a thorough study in all medical texts, but when it is an investigation that I need to do for a certain reason, I I feel fortunate to be able to access the texts and read obviously the important work of many philologists that analyze these texts and they give me an insight um

An a layer um extra than the one that I would get linguistically. If that makes sense. So, yeah, I don't have like a a long uh relationship with the medical texts, but I'm very interested in that. >> Oh, sorry, Avina. Amun, just uh because this is a perfect word that you choose to make an example because we talked about this this this word from the perspective of Amun. Like uh I don't remember when, but we talked about it, Amun. Do you remember? The [snorts] like the way that in the medical like

The way that they were approached in a medical way uh to the person that is suffering from this melancholy. Would you, from your research, Amun, would you give us like a an idea of that? >> Yeah, so right out of the Hippocratic Corpus, you have the humoral they call it humoral pathology, right? It's that we hear being described. And one of those one of those imbalances that you can get is of the black bile and that's why melancholia

Is the disease that affects the person who is entering into um this yes, weather driven, right? Weather influences it, diet influences it, right? Um and uh the uh Galen is so involved with the diagnosis of melancholics and the treatment of melancholics. He's got drug regimen to treat them and everything. Um that he writes an entire work on black bile

On melancholy. And in that work he talks about how the black bile can also influence the um, the eruption of plagues. Right? Skin problems you can have ultimately connected to the melancholy. And how do you treat this abundance of black bile? Well, it's you know, through these different drugs that will affect your moistness, your dryness, or your heat, and your cold. So, it all comes back to one thing. And I had to translate, by the way, for my master's thesis. It was a translation of Galen's black bile. So, I'm I'm not I'm

Not pulling any of this out of my backside. This is These are real texts. You can go and look at them. Right? So, um, part of the black bile issue is its effects on what we would say is psychology. Right? Depression. You call it Well, they were talking about depression. Right? Well, yes, kind of, but in a more in a broader picture. >> interpret that still. It wasn't that of a mental state yet. It took a while. Aristotle maybe mentioned that again, the word melancholy, and it start giving

It a different, um, context. We we're still talking about something that appears in the body. It took years to think of melancholy as Freud thought about it, as a type of psyche, right? A type of personality, let's say.

>> Which is almost like, well, we couldn't quite grasp the Greek concept in its whole. So, here we're going to take a little side aspect of it and say, "Okay, this is Now we're talking about a mental process of depression, blah, blah, blah." And we're going to call that melancholy. Um, yeah, no, there's a whole It has a much more It's much more integrated. Um, the world of ancient medicine is much more integrated with, you know, like you were saying weather, airs, waters, places. Why is What

What What is the water and air and the air I'm breathing and the water that I'm drinking? What does that have to do with my state of health and whether or not there's going to be an epidemic this year? Right? I mean, it's it's you know, it's complicated, gorgeous science that I find myself reading it just being just having to hang on. When Galen talks about drugs, when you know, drugs that are used in the treatment of melancholy,

Um, he talks about drugs that are used in um, with sex problem problems with uh, sexual dysfunction. You know, it it's Wait a minute. Is this uh, I've even read It wasn't Galen, but it was one of the I think it was a Byzantine Paul of Aegina maybe, uh, who's writing about the treatment of um, disorders of the mind.

Disorders of, um, thinking is I guess is what we would we would call it. And in that he talks about melancholy and again drugs that are used to treat the melancholic state. And there's an overlap between those treatments and sexual disfunction treatments. So, I've all

The material is advanced and um, all you can come away from that with, at least me, I don't know. Is that you're trying to use an operating system to comprehend a much more advanced uh system than you're capable of. And if you had the these one-word concepts that they come up with um that are compounds that they've put this whole ladder of words together, the ones that usually in our dictionaries or lexica or modern English lexica, right? Or from 1850s or LSJ. Well, sometimes they'll just put we don't know

What this is. Like let me ask about this one. The verb um bakcheuo, to become bacchic. Right? What the hell does that mean? There's no In English, when they translate that into English, >> There's no little Scott can explain it. >> Can we Well, I'm so I have an idea of what I want to ask you both, but can we just make a small Okay, yeah. Please let me know. >> I have a comment that that was exactly what I was saying. It's not only the concepts that they came up with. Is this abstract

Phonemes that put in that order to create the word whatever. Arete. Uh paideia. Call it whatever. How did you decide it's called paideia and not ABC? Like this is the incredible thing. Not only the concept, but the the creation of words. And I agree in everything that you said, Ammon. We we're both amazed by the same things. Sorry, Bruno. >> Yeah. >> That's okay. You gave me a bit of order in my mind, also, because I wanted to go like, "Oh, let's talk about bakcheuo." And but >> [laughter]

>> Which which we all love. And uh but we were talking before, Ammon, um about the pre-Socratic and Socratic idea. Like I was obviously asking about if this was just to time frame something and well, we are I understanding that not because I also ask you before and and everyone was telling me that there is different obviously ways of seeing or or or make philosophy or something like that, but if if we were in the in the middle of that a bit. So, I guess it's connected because we're talking about this concepts

Difficult to give you an idea of what is this of what is of what is that. And as we mentioned the pre-Socratic way of thinking, I guess it's connected with um with how complex the language can get to talk about what they were talking like a science of trying to explain what is the how the earth was formed or whatever. So, uh could we um take again Evina the from from what we were talking about this way of thinking of the pre-Socratic and then we go into

The Socratic. Can we take Do you remember where? Not that that you don't need it to do it from the same part that we were before like just as you want. >> I was just talking I'll try to remember what I said. But maybe yeah, it was a a comment that I made that yeah, even the word pre-Socratic is not how they called themselves obviously. It was given to them a lot later in the 19th century. And maybe by Hermann Diels um if I'm not wrong.

Um so, they were not calling themselves pre-Socratic obviously because that's not a way to define yourself and obviously that doesn't mean that necessarily they came chronologically before the Socratics because some of the pre-Socratic philosophers were contemporary to Socratics. And also the idea that we use pre-Socratic, as I said before to Bruno, to me um is like say I don't know, using [clears throat] the word Socratic to define someone else um it it makes me think that um it's a bit offensive to them. It makes us think of them as inferior to Socrates

Because they came before Socrates. Also, the word philosophers. Are they really philosophers? Yeah, they influenced philosophy in many ways, but they were not calling themselves philosophers. They were at most, I will call them inquirers, thinkers that had a very vast um uh let's say portfolio of topics. >> Yeah, I think I agree. I think it's a much better way to describe them as natural philosophers than philosophers because all of their works are about the basics of nature and how the >> naturalism. >> You could also you could I mean I mean

I'd be happy to call them physicists, you know, but as opposed to you know, you're right about pre-Socratic, right? Who made that up, right? Gorgeous. Harmony. One of the things they're coming up with is harmony. How What do you study if you derive harmony? Like what is harmony mathematically and what is and just the concept? Why does >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's it's mind-blowing. It's you see that we're both the same junkies. We're following that we're smoking the same ancient dope, man. It's it's gorgeous. Oh god, go ahead. What I'm sorry I

Interrupted, but you're exactly right. >> that to me. >> Hello crew. Greetings from the road. I just wanted to communicate that we just opened our Stones and Serpents patron. Find us. We're now constantly uploading different audio-visual materials. Some are free and some are not. We are sharing SNS behind the scenes, raw footage of the current Eastern expedition, official soundtracks, and even collections of future productions like shortcuts and documentaries. Finally, I would like also to encourage all of you to become a part of the Explorer chat. It's free

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>> But if you know, I I would love to uh to take it from you just said cosmos. And that was the actual word we were we were on it when we were speaking about Okay, we understand pre-Socratic but we don't we don't care about the name of the definition. >> More science. Yeah, thinkers, inquirers. >> And what will what they were um talking about? What was the inquiry that they were doing? I know it's very broad, probably, but >> Yeah. >> Can we Okay. >> Of course, so they talked um about the origins of the of the external world.

They were looking for where this world came from. Um the way more in modern times we talked about the Big Bang, right? How did we start having air, water around us, soil? Where did that come from? And some people may say, "Well, that's a theological inquiry, religious one." Because back then they thought that the gods would um give order in the world and its God was responsible for other parts of the world like Demeter um, for the crops. So, that's where we get food from. But, for um, the philosophers, the pre-Socratic

Philosophers as you I'll use that term just for this podcast, the pre-Socratic philosophers um, were looking for what started the world. They were looking for the seed. Was it water that started the world? Was it fire? Um, what was it that started this world? And this is an exploration for the for the material principle of things, the arche, the beginning of this world. Um, so there uh, we have many ideas that would be called today, they would fall under the category of science as Ammon said,

Right? Of course, we have some other ideas like the impermanence of the world from Heraclitus, everything flows, that he said. We have other people talking about how strange it is to think of gods as people. Xenophanes, the anthropomorphism Of gods, making them look like they're anthropos, people. Yeah, how they drink and eat

[clears throat]

Like people do or how they have uh, weaknesses in their personalities or um, yeah, how they act and think because in all the texts that we get, we get um, in Homer for example, gods are a big part of um, the Homeric epics and they're described as humans. So, then we have the pre-Socratic philosophers questioning that. Um, and of course, there's a lot work on numbers with Pythagoras. That's where we get the Pythagoras theorem theorem in maths. We have the atomism in Democritus. We have very important work. They set, I

Would say, the foundations for the scientific investigation nowadays. And of course, they were the inspiration for Western philosophy, like naturalism, that everything is governed by natural natural rules and laws, rationalism, and other things. That's what made us given the name of philosophers. Probably. But they have done a lot of work in other in other aspects other than philosophy because nowadays we think of philosophy as something different to science. So that's why I'm saying that with modern

With our modern criteria, we cannot think of philosophy and science as one thing. >> Right. >> Right. Yeah. >> Right. And a perfect a perfect follow-up is the medicine is related in the same way. The what we call the pre-Socratic philosophy is bleeding into creating for us questions of medicine. And well, if this is what's happening on a level that we cannot see, then how is that applying to the medicine? What are the things that what are the things that we cannot see, for example, in drug action? Which they

Used to use the word euangelia, which is very close to euangelia, right? The gospel. What is the efficacy of the drug? That's how the doctors are referring to it. What is its gospel? Right? And the the basis for the doctors trying to understand how the pharmacy, what we call the pharmacy, is working is coming from that pre-Socratic pre-Socratic natural inquiry. And some of them are actually physicians as well. And people don't realize that, for example, the probably the most brilliant of I don't know. Tell me if I'm wrong, but if you just

Look at Pythagoras, for example, just look at Pythagoras. Um people think he's a mathematician. Like, what do you call him? He's a mathematician? He's a philosopher. He's Right, he's coming up with geometry, but nobody knows that he was a physician. Nobody knows that. I don't know what how they get managed to get washed out of the history. But Empedocles, same thing. These people are are practicing physicians who are, you know, we kind of look at them as like weird um you know, magic using They're almost

Like shaman kind of people. So, is it fair to call them philosophers, right? Ah, man, it's this It's You're exactly right, Iphigenia. It's us trying with our barbarian operating system trying to reassemble something that's much more complex than we can really we can really you know, digest. >> And that one Okay, so if we add the ingredient of medicine also to these ideas of like this is the cosmos where we are questioning stuff that came from before, like you were saying, Iphigenia. And now we add this ingredient of medicine. Can Could we say that all of these

Different stuff that were just one idea of what the cosmos is, I guess, or something like that was what was creating actually this inquiries like in in in itself? Let's say what I'm trying to ask Ammon is like you think medicine or the drug use or the the the physicist the physicist practice was actually

Making them engaging more with trying to answer these questions more than another topic that you can choose, you know? As a human. >> I can't answer why. I can't tell you why it happened, but we can show just through the literary evidence that there is a some sort of renaissance some sort of classical renaissance that's coming to us through the Greek. I mean, our renaissance medieval is just a reflection it's it's a renaissance because of that Greek original. But what I'm trying to say is that Greek original

And I think it is language bound. Right? There are not other Mediterranean cultures that are outside of the Greek speaking world that are deriving these very same concepts. That's not happening. There is a spark that is happening in the Greek world that is Greek speaking world that is facilitating their ability

To create the science to see how all the mechanics work. So a physician, for example, let me we talked about Pythagoras. If Pythagoras is going around healing and he's performing purgations with drugs and these healings affect the person's soul um what is he? Is he religious? Is he a religious figure? Is he a physician? Is he a scientist? And the answer is The fact that you can't see that he can be all of those things at once is why Pythagoras is walking around telling people a squared plus b squared equals c

Squared, which you know for damn sure if you were to walk up to a modern-day physician and tell them to derive some geometry or calculus to to you know, they're going to tell you, "Oh, look, I just took the basics of what I could get to get my grade and get out of basic calculus." They're not thinking

As the Greek was allowing Pythagoras to think. All right. Um There's a reason that we have this strange idea of why the Greeks could perform calculus. How could they do? Didn't they have to derive certain No, no, no. It's coming through the language itself. I have a collection of Greek mathematical works.

Right? And in those Greek math mathematical works, basic calculus is explained. Integrals is explained. Not with conceptual images, not with calculations, but with words. >> [snorts] >> It's almost as if the Greek gave the world a superior

Ability to deconstruct the world and then reconstruct it in the form of these visions of tragedy and all of these things like that. Um because we're talking about pre-socratics and the medicine and the wisdom, the science that's in it. Um but remember, this is all um When we get to the stage, we're in the same place because the stage in Athens is a religious operation where the public is purged.

All right? We're performing um sacrifices of incense. were burning incense, were entering into that, right? Again, is it medical? Is it theatrical, right? Yes, the the answer is yes. And and uh it's my opinion, Vena, you chime in, tell me what you think, but it's my opinion that it's the language that's driving that reality. Let me give you one more example. In um with Asclepius, um when we have the pop-

Population of a city that's being oppressed somehow with what you and I would call bad news, um what they do is they create sacrifice of incense in order in they have specifically prepared with christening, the process of christening. It's very specific in order to affect the population as a whole. They're fumigating

The city is in order to allow them to react to bad news. And my question is um what what level are these people operating that they have no distinction between when we go to Sunday to our church and we sit in our church and we make our signs and we take our communion, um that has nothing to do with hospital. It has nothing to do with the practice of medicine, but in antiquity, it is everything. A purgation, whether it's your purgation for your crimes, right? Whatever those are, your moral

Failures, a purgation of that in a an assembly, a religious assembly, is a theater. That is a doctor's visit, right? Those purgations that Galen is writing about, where do you think they're getting all that knowledge from? Why do you Why is he going to the priestess of Artemis on Lemnos to get 20,000 pills or how many ever thousand pills it was of her drug to take to prescribe to the people of Rome? Why are they using a religious drug

On people in Rome? Because it's not religious. That oracle, that priestess, she's she's functioning in multi-realms at once, right? All the knowledge, that's that's why Plutarch is talking. He's talking to a priestess to get all of this knowledge. Right? To be I don't I don't know. >> Sorry Ammon. And sorry Avina. I would just just a little a little small because we actually were were talking with Avina about also that the oracle. And how and how it connects a lot because it's a wider view of the world.

I guess. Because Avina was telling us that the oracle will be highly educated from even zero years. It will be in prepared for it. Nothing was above it kind of thing. So in like um um so I >> Yeah, the word of the oracle was very important and respected by everyone. Yeah. >> So I guess it it it it it relates with medicine also. So the the I the oracle will if you were giving this example Ammon about Galen we're talking about another time frame I guess now. But Galen

Was going to Lemnos to take some prescription or some drugs of some medicines to bring to Rome that were being made um I mean this priestess was doing it. So, we can see again how this religious stuff will be related with medicine also. >> Yeah, this priestess hey hang on this priestess is not actually out there doing it. She has an army of people that she oversees in the process of collecting

And forming the final product which is called the Lemnian Seal. Everybody in the [\\h__\\h] Mediterranean knows about it. And it's used in multiple multiple multiple prescriptions. So, that's why Galen goes and gets thousands

Of Lemnian Seals and that seal is a reference to her own image that is branded on the trochisci, these little pills that they make. And that image is impressed on it. So, you can know oh this is true Lemnian. Right? It's Lemnian they call it Lemnian Earth is the street name. You've got to get some Lemnian Earth. And uh um that priestess is overseeing an operation that's a very large sophisticated operation that Galen can go and pick up thousands of these pills. Remember, nobody else can make this stuff. The knowledge of it is is preserved with that priesthood.

>> So, it will be like she has the the knowledge and the people is working through that knowledge that she has because of their that she's education. >> Just like processing of the purple. Right? There's all sorts of people involved in processing it. So, it's an operation. >> Okay. And um so I I have this idea if both of you don't mind. Which is like um We talked about at the beginning, Evina, but we left it for the for the end. Um we said to us the the meaning of the word

Or concept even or figure or title, I don't know, of Medusa. And uh you do you do tell us you told us uh it was protect it was pro- protector or guardian or something like that. Will you will you Can we open this discussion about this Medusa idea? Um with with um what you were saying at the beginning, Evina. And then we chat about. Please.

>> Um so, yeah, I'm Well, it was a different context we were talking about. Um that's an interesting idea that Amon mentioned as well. I think it runs through philology um as a concept. The people that are amazed by philology, how many times in Greek texts, I'll call them texts, it can be anything, prose, poetry, whatever, um we have heroes, protagonists

Uh of myths called in certain names that etymologically describe how these heroes are. So, Medusa So, there my question was and still a question and Amon, you're welcome to answer it. Um is it the chicken and does the egg or the the hen comes from the egg? What is How do we decide that that lady, Medusa,

Is going to be called Medusa, which means the guardian of the temple of Athena, of many other ideas, feminist included ideas of um that that could be used as interpretation of that myth of Medusa. Do we put that name later or because of the name we get inspired for the myth? That doesn't make sense what I'm asking. >> It does, and I wish I knew. I wish I knew, and I'm such a >> [laughter] >> I'm such a careful classicist that I I'm perfectly happy to think about which

Came first, the chicken or the egg in that case, but at the same time I'm limited. I know unless I find an ancient source, like a grammarian who says, and I haven't I've read lots of grammarians, and I haven't seen it. I can go look for it now though, see if we can dredge something up, but yeah, it's a Why do you call Hermes the Medusa? Why is he the one who's under in a certain passage is characterizes that that one who brings the safety of the government.

That one who brings the safety of the ruling powers. I mean, that one who's really driving those Medusa then end up really driving temple activity. Um when they say the I read a um I read a Greek source, and forgive me, I've read so many Greek sources I've forgotten more than I've read. Um I've forgotten more than most people have read, I should say. Um a Greek source was and maybe you'll recognize this, Athena, a Greek source said dragons and wolves are the guardians of the temples,

The ones who really are involved with whatever the temple is doing. And however it's processing, however it's functioning, whatever pragmata it's producing, right? It's processes. And um when I read that, I was like, "Oh, shit." So, all those times I've seen those references um to the wolves at this temple, wolves associated with the temple, why are they using wolf iconography? Oh god, it just came flooding to me. So, in the Medusa in the Medusa chicken and egg um was there a priestess of the temple of Athena. That's what we

Have. We have a priestess of the temple of Athena who was murdered. In different ways murdered, whatever you can put it. She's the origin of that thing, that hideous skin of Zeus's nurse, who's a a woman, by the way. That skin has the head of that Medusa affixed to it. And that's the image that we are using as a defense, we who worship the virgin on the hill. I mean, which came first? Did that priestess come first, or did the idea that we have in Mother Greek of what a priest what

What what that priestess would be doing, how she would be functioning? Right? I think it's the same thing in Maya. If you look at the name for Maya in Greek, it really just means to act as a midwife. So, which came first? The midwife, and they called her Maya? Maybe that was her name, right? >> [sighs] >> Oh god. >> I had the same question, Bruno. I was telling you the same things before. And that is This is the magic of ancient Greek. What comes first, the concept or the name?

Well, it doesn't matter at the end of the day. We're likely to have both the concept and the name of whatever it is. But I I can't I can't be calm unless I know the actual truth what came first. So that's I think a drive for many philologists, if I'm not wrong. It all of it comes down to the language. Why did we put that name? When did we come up with that name? The chicken and the egg thing you were saying, I mean. >> I think you I I think what you said

About English and the project you're working on, um your modern English or other modern languages, look, um you've got to look back to mother Greek because every you mentioned euphoria and that is such a perfect example. Um ecstasy, I think, is another good example. Imagine they were able to come up with Imagine they were able to coin and come up with the concept that you and I think of ecstatic, except it's bigger. It's not exactly what you and I think of it. It's bigger in antiquity. It's associated

With cult activity. It's ex It's associated with a process of entering into communication with a divinity. Right? Right? When you and I say Now you and I sit around and we're like ecstasy. Well, that's a specific drug, but yeah, it kind of means this like place where you can go on a drug. Do you see how we've Oh god, that's Isn't that the dope? That's the dope.

>> I agree. We are like the the nerd association here. Absolutely. >> You should totally continue that project. You should write something. You should do some computer analysis on it or something using all your linguistic training, you know what I mean? Cuz you've got them Linguistics really gives you the mathematical kind of backing of all the language. We can sit around and as you as you know in classical philology and get stoned all day on the beauty, right? You have you your other personality wants that math and wants that very

Logical explanation of what's going on. And if you can show the world are you going to show the world then that what they're speaking is like a dumbed-down version of this beautiful Greek original?

>> Um ancient Greek in its form that we read it we study today is math. The syntax of ancient Greek is mathematical. It is connected. You cannot like ancient Greek without liking order and math. Generally speaking math, logic let's call it, okay? Better called as logic but math like one plus one, obviously. Um so yeah, I mean I would be very interested to continue the the project. I I find that many people use words today and they have no transparency to that etymology. And yeah, of course in the in the case of melancholia

Um or melancholy, whatever you call it in whatever pronunciation you want, it's the same. Um yeah, it's changed a lot but there are other words, other concepts that the core of them is the same and it's beautiful for people that don't have this native ability that because for me it's very easy to see the etymology. Sometimes mean nostalgia and I know really what it means. The pain, the effort you need to put to go back or the feeling of missing your home. It can be many things, right?

Like endless things. So I feel like it's it's a nice project and thank you for using these words that I should continue. It's it's it's very I'm nice to have that support and of a fellow and uh a great philologist like yourself

Who can at least see what my intentions are with this project. >> Don't say great philologist. Oh God, don't. Nemesis, she's sitting right over there. She's going to hear it and I'm going to make some giant blunder and everybody's going to say, "Oh God, this is what a great philologist is?" No, people, one thing I need you to understand, the audience now. Now, I that we both understand is that Greek is so beautiful and so beautifully, mathematically, geometrically,

Reasonably complex that every time we're in her presence, we're humbled. And our goal is to become so intimate with her that we have that that that constant familiarity, that constant dope that you get from the language cuz it's an addiction. Once you start reading classical Greek, it gets into your system somehow. You're willing to sacrifice, you know, Athena, you could have made a lot more money as a lawyer or something. If you can do classical Greek, you could have done law. You could have you know, you

Could be making the big bucks right now. But you know, you've had the crack and you know that this stuff is addictive and it's gorgeous and it could change the world. Right? Athena sees that you're speaking modern languages that are taking that are drawing from that gorgeous, gorgeous well. And she's going to bring that vision to the world. And that's I mean, that's what you know, she's a post-Socratic philosopher.

>> [Laughter] >> But what I mean also is that we have different starting points in the sense that you covered a lot more to be able to read these texts. For me, it was a lot easier because I I had this innate curiosity um about etymology. Like in my free time as a kid I was reading the dictionary, please. I mean, that's not >> that is so unfair. >> we don't have the same starting point. >> Yeah. >> I was forced by my father to read the dictionary. But, the point is [clears throat] that you had to learn a language from scratch and it's very

Difficult to learn ancient Greek if you don't speak modern Greek. >> Right. >> And vice versa. >> Right. No, no, it's a you've got a leg up. You've got a leg up. Right, definitely you've got a leg up and especially if you come from bog-trotting English, right? English is not English is not conducive, right? And you think, "Oh, wait a minute, English borrows so many forms." Yeah, why do you think English borrows 30% to 40% of its own native forms, right? That you think are native English words? Why is it

Borrowing those from Greek? Why is it doing it? Cuz it doesn't have the capacity. It's how my brain was set up and you've got to sit humbly and look at the Greek and say, "Oh my God, um if I can, I'm going to take this in." And there are times that we go to class, you know how this works, we go to class and you can spend sometimes an entire 50-minute class on five lines, right? And it's not because oh, it's Aristotle and his his note

Style of writing is poopy, you know, it's nothing like that. It's because it's somebody somebody um like the author of the work on the great poetess, the Bacchic poetess, um starts Oh god, Lycophron. It's the great work by Lycophron, the Alexandra, or whatever you want to call it. That's about a prophetic Bacchic priestess,

Right? Cassandra. It's about her. It's her words that come out. And I swear to you, people, I swear to you, you cannot spend less than an hour on five lines of this thing. The entire work is that way. Why? Because Lycophron is making up vocabulary. He is creating words. Every fifth word is some goddamn unknown, never seen it, done exist anywhere in any other text. It's not just a hapax. It's his own. He's made it. He's fine-tuned the word. So, what do you have to do? You have to look at the word

That he invented. You have to look at it in its context, which is way crazy, esoteric, and hard to understand. Right? References that you don't know, people you don't know. It's nobody that's in this myth. Boom, he inserts a fake word, right? That's now a real word. And you have to figure out what that s- that new creation is. And the only way to do this, I stumble all the time, the only way to do this is to be able to think

In that programmed, sophisticated, rational way that they're thinking. You have to think like Lycophron in order to get to the place where his words are, right? And it's so difficult. And then you can pick up, you know, Thucydides or somebody and just plow through it, you know. It's just a Right, it's just he's not making a lot of stuff up, but it's a good historical analysis, you know what I mean? And and whatnot. So, realize that And it takes a lot of boldness for classical scholars to step up

Because um to do this in front of a live audience, to be able to read what we call sight reading in front of a live audience, that's isn't it Davina? Isn't that a hugely intimidating? >> Yeah, and you know while you were talking well, it's not entirely connected, but just to give an idea to the people listening it's for anyone learning a foreign language when I learned English, when I was taught Spanish the teachers were saying, well, you need to think like an English speaker. You

Need to think like a Spanish speaker. So, it's not just to do the direct translation. You need to live in this world to understand the pragmatics of how this language functions and what it creates. So, it's it's to get into the mentality first and then understand because you cannot understand if they you don't see the context around the text. That's what I was thinking while you were talking. >> The more >> It's very connected, but yeah. >> The more souls that you can absorb, the more of those ancient sources you read,

The more you become a part of that world. And it it that's exactly the way you described it is exactly how the translator's life kind of progresses. You become more of a native Well, you you see how these terms are used. You know what they do. You know you know how they refer to the bodily waste products now. You know how they look at them. They don't quite look at them like we do. Right? Um you're going to have to get into this world. It's a little bit different. And um

The one thing that I like is is Parthenos. Right? You talk about the virgin. You talk about the virgin on the hill. What is the Parthenon and what is all the What the hell is a virgin? We can't even translate virgin properly. We can't even translate virgin. I'm seeing virgins here that in the text it's an age group. Right it's not has nothing to do with your the status of your hymen. Right which by the way is Greek word, right? It's a Greek word, I'll give them that.

But the point is the more you see what a virgin is, the more you see what something very basic and simple like it you'd think something like sweat would be simple. I can't tell you how many times I've been reading in physicians about sweat. And about how it Did you know they view it as a pharmacological product just like a milk that you would take from the opium poppy?

Oh my god. And yes. Yes we wanted >> find out about that. But now it's said it's in the earth. >> No, it's you produce it yourself too. And when the devil tries to attract Eve, he uses his own sweat. It's not illogical. It is an ingredient in aphrodisiacs.

Right? I mean if you think of it What is it? Is Are they trying to use the pheromones or something in the in the sweat? I mean we don't do this kind of thing, right? So and we don't have ichor either, right? We have blood. >> about in the medieval times recipes in witches uh Yeah, absolutely. The sweat of a dragon, I mean in in tales and folk stories. Yeah, you're right. [laughter]

>> Don't you love it? Bruno, you wanted to ask something and I interrupted. What was the question you were going to ask? >> No, um I just was fascinated fascinated listening to your conversation. I guess this was the whole point of it I guess like for you to because it's it's also an experiment we're doing which is like you just met each other. So there is topics that you know, that's that's the way. We didn't prepare anything. We just we have two um experts talking about what we are

Inquiring as amateurs. >> One expert and one fan. >> [laughter] >> Sorry. >> [clears throat] >> And um So yes, um well I we're approaching the 3 hours with Evina. So Evina, thank you very much. >> [laughter] >> And but I would like to make a question that that I think I'm going to ask all the time. I I asked Ammon this like 10 times, but all the time we get the same but a bit more weird. Um which is about this concept name god or we don't know actually

That's what I'm getting that we don't know what Bacchus is. So as um last idea for for or la- one of the last ideas um can we approach to this? I know this is not in the overview, Evina, but just like a spontaneous question about who is Bacchus or what is this idea of Bacchus? Not in Roman times like before where the word comes from. >> Um can I just ask why you've talked about that multiple times? Why has that come up? Sorry, but you started your question

Like that and it was like I was expecting something different. I don't know. But can I please get an explanation on that and why Amun has different approaches.

>> So, [snorts] with with different even in the Hellenistic collective that that was the way that I connect with Evina. Uh, I ask uh, multiple persons um, because we were being invited to lectures and and this this other person that was an expert on arts, classical arts and all

Of this. So, two of them were being asked we have been we have been tracking this Bacchus because I get the the the most answers that I get all time is like, well, this is the god of wine of the Romans. And so, when but not all the time. Let it say um, when we track but let's say Roman times it you repeat this, not the same time frame, isn't it? And we we have the the Bacchae or the Bacchants. So, we can infer as amateurs even not uh,

Asking somebody like yourself um, that the word Bacchus is older than Roman times and it seems to be also a concept that is to become Bacchic or the word that you you mentioned before Amun, the I don't know how to pronounce it. >> Yeah, because it was an adjective to describe Dionysus in that sense. That's what you mean that it's way before Roman time. >> Okay. I don't know well, I don't know. So, well, in this idea that I just gave, I'm not saying any affirmations, just

Uh, what is the inquiry we're doing On my side, uh, on our side. So, what do you think about this whole mess that I just gave you as a question? Mess, sorry. >> I think I'm going to go first. Yeah, when I hear what you're saying let me go first because I'm going to throw out something that's different, but I think it's going to answer the question and then you can proceed mathematically to do it the right way.

The two things that you talked about, you know, Euripides and then later a Roman Bacchus, right? What do the two have in common? Bacchus is the power that's coming into the city to [\\h__\\h] disrupt things, right? It's going to cause problems and it's going to cause people to do things that are out of their normal daily activities.

What are these things? The The women are going to go up into the mountains and they're going to be performing rights and there are murders that are associated with We have accounts of women coming into towns and taking the children. Like What What the hell, man? It looks like they're taking kids captive. >> And they keep house. >> Right. Right. They're causing and these are women who are free and slaves, right? We see that in the same situation in in the Greek-speaking world that we do in the Latin-speaking world,

The Romans come right up against it with a Bacchic group of women who create a conspiracy. They go out and rest them and kill them and one of the things that Livy tells us, one of the reasons they took them that they arrested them was based on the drugs that they had that were used in Bacchic ritual. That's in That's in our historians. So, the the similarity If you want to know what Bacchic I am Bacchic, what that means, cuz that's how they translate in the LSJ, to act in a Bacchic way, right? Um when you

Enter that Bacchic state, whether it's in um Thebes or whether you know, whether it wherever it is, it doesn't matter where it is. Wherever it is, you're going to end up with a disruption of the government. You're going to end up with some kind of idea that people, whether they're free or slave, have the obligation to go do these rites. And it's not just at anybody, right? It's everybody from slaves up to the the people who are ruling, right? The rulership, all right? All of the cast of prophets, those people, right? So, I

Think that to ba- to become Bacchic, I don't know what it means, but I can see that it always ends up in some kind of conflict. Like some you know, war kind of situation. Is that why our longest epic on Bacchus by Nonnus, is that why it's about this massive war between the Greek-speaking world and the Indian world? Is that why? Right? Who we call Indians because of the Greek.

Right? I mean, it's it's it's weird. It's like um the influence the influence of the culture that comes from Mother Greek is is dominating um the world. I mean, it's it's weird. Okay, that was my answer. Now, >> No, but it's very interesting that you mentioned the conflict uh because yeah, conflict can be in many contexts. So, in that sense, when you have a well-governed city-state, and then you have the Bacchic Bacchic um festivals, almost

Golden festivals, uh that occur and the absolute chaos. So, this is a contradiction, a conflict between order and lack of order. And that is in ancient Greece, at least, correct me if I'm wrong, is connected directly to uh god Dionysus. And we have many other festivals connected to him. So, is that disruption, is that um um yeah, that that disruption in order um that, of course, yeah, it survived as a concept, as you said, in in Latin, as well. But, yeah, it doesn't come from Latin. We already have uh Bac- Bacchic

Um rights uh way before. >> Right, right, exactly. I'm sorry. Yes, perfect. I guess that's was what my my question was going. Like >> I agree. >> I have a fascination with time frames. I don't know why, but it gives you a better sense >> I think what Vinnie just said I interrupt you. I'm sorry. I think what just go said it's so important. It's so important, because, remember, Bruno, we were talking about how the theater is purging the population. If you don't bring in Dionysus,

You get in order to purge your population, you get a Bacchic reaction. You get a you get a some kind of violent Bacchic um ecstasy that takes things over. It's almost like, okay, you can do this naturally, and you can you can set up this orchestra, right? You can set up um so that the people, while the priest of Dionysus is sitting there, right in the middle of every- everybody can experience this purgation. Is that what it means to be Bacchic? Is that what And and the Romans just you know, got to a point where that phenomenon, that natural phenomenon of that Bacchic

Revolt kicks in. When you're not bringing that Dionysiac purification through theater or through whatever venue medium, then you're going to get a Bacchic um kickback. The only The reason I'm really excited about saying this is because they have this thing called um third time. So that your Bacchic third time. So one of the big Bacchic festivals is every third year. Right? It's every third Why are they doing it? The oracle switches from an Apollonian oracle to a Bacchic oracle.

And it just makes me think is it something Is there some kind of sacred, you know, physics, math going on here? I mean the center Well, we're trying to figure out what is it to become Bacchic. Right? And you mentioned the theaters, and all of a sudden you realize, "Oh god, it is religion, medicine, it is government. It is the same thing. What have we been looking at what >> about what you said before. Yeah, absolutely. It's connected. Sorry, I interrupted you, but it's exactly the essence of the of what you we talked

About before, medicine and theater and religion religious practices today. What are they? Today, what were they back then? So it's really the root of what you're saying, 100%.

>> Okay, so um So we know that comes from before. Um in the Roman times, okay, Dionysius. And in text like in evidence um can we trace this back like to Bronze Age even?

Like this Bacchic idea? >> I would say I would say because it's in uh Linear B, right? You've got the wanax, right? Dionysius. You've got that in Linear B already. So, um uh I would say the practice itself, the purgation itself, has to be at least as old as you see the, you know, the entrance of the god. Maybe it was Maybe it was There were variations of the practice. Like why is Evina, why is it that Heracles has this these sacred temples that he's practicing something in where um

Medea is the only one allowed? Where we have sources that say Medea is the only one allowed into the actual observation of the right. Right? We We have almost from the beginning, the Late Bronze Age, we have corruptions of mysteries. We have like alterations or or you like, you know, little offshoots of mysteries. And I don't think we we really understand. If this is the world um the Mycenaean world that is really you know, it's the oldest Greek that we've got, right? It's the oldest Greek

That we've got. And if it is still preserving the name itself, Dionysius, um >> [sighs] >> I don't know. I >> way back. Yeah, because it's not just mentioned in Euripides. It's something a lot older. As you said, because of what we have in the writings. Um and there are many mysteries. um, just to make a very general comment, and I really like the project you're working on, Bruno, with your team. Um, because it looks into these kinds of questions that are a lot broader than

Texts. You pose questions that are really in the heart of the ancient Greek world. How do we get these ideas? Um, where do they come from? What were the people thinking about these ideas back then? Did they know that, uh, Dionysus was as old as at least the writings that include their name? There are so many questions around it. So, um, that's why I felt like it's a wonderful project, and it's a great opportunity to be able to talk about these things with with Ammon. And most

Of all, it's great that you guys pose these questions, um, in in your project, and I feel very lucky to have been invited today here, and to have the opportunity to talk about these things, and of course meet Ammon. That was like a great conversation. And I hope we didn't I'm not sure if we were in our own bubble, philological bubble, or if things were actually understood, because we got excited many times about things. But I hope I really hope they're understood by someone that has an interest, let's say, in philology, and they want to learn more about it, and

Get like an introduction into this world. I really hope things were understood, and we're not like >> Vera, use the words. Well, thank you very much to to to to come here and talk with us. Um, what you were just saying, yeah, that's exactly, Um, why we are on the side of our documentary that we are working on. At least for We have been working for almost a year now and we are seeing like we have a a whole at least this whole year. And um, but we decided to make this side

Parallel project of this history sync query that we talked from a quote that Ammon said once. I stole it and I put that on my on on the name of the of this project that the whole idea is that. So, we did four chapters four volumes with Ammon um introducing people from the beginning what philology is and we went into a a a bunch of different topics and now this is an expansion of this idea that is a we are so grateful that both of you

To be able to do this experiment and to have two persons that know what they are talking about um giving us even dif- more points of view about all of these questions. That's why I repeat the question, you know. I I I we have been following Bacchus since the beginning. So, I keep doing it and all the time we get different stuff. Not different um I mean if I put a clip of everything about Bacchus makes sense. I will show for for for both of you. Like we we have

Different um ways that you can approach it. But so is pointing to somewhere and a figure is appearing. So, that's why I I keep as asking about the this last question I just did to both of you. And and Ammon, thank you very much to come here again. And Ammon is part of our project from the since the beginning. So, it's been like uh

Key figure in in the whole Stones and Serpents universe. And now with you, Avena, is like is exactly what what what we wanted um to keep pushing this forward for not just experts uh pure audience. I mean, it's it's amazing. We have a lot of people interested here in Chile now that before we started with this uh nobody was even watching anything of what we were doing, but now with the congregation of Ammon's channel, they're very into it. They're studying uh the ancient Greek to go into the source, and you

Know, it's for you to see for yourself. And um so, that's where we're trying to push forward also with the project of Stones and Serpents. So, we are so grateful that both of you are here now. Thank you so much. Avena, it was a >> It was a pleasure to meet you, Avena, and I'm going to mention you on Lady Babylon because I love it when I run into another del pad, and you've you've seen this stuff and the project that you're working on. Um I think that's brilliant. I think

It's absolutely brilliant, and I'm honored to be able to interact with you like this. [music] I'm Thank you. Thank you. And Bruno, well done, sir. Right, well done. >> Yeah. >> Thank you both again.

>> [Music] >> Yeah.